When does bastinado become dangerous? Is there real risk of injury?

#1
I have no consistent conclusion about this...

On the one hand, i see some claim that feet are extremely delicate and that you may have broken bones and tissues if you hit too hard.

On the other hand, some claim that feet are actually very resistant since it's full of fat and muscular and other protective tissues that are flexible and thick, preventing any real injury.

I have also seen some videos, most of them by Parox, that seem to be really, really hard, and there has been no injury (at least that i am aware) and the girl has walked afterwards.

So... how hard can feet be beaten until serious bone injury actully happen? Or is that a myth and you can go full extreme without any real risk despite the pain?

I am, of course, talking about using leather belts, rattan and bamboo canes, riding crops, single tail and multitail whips and paddles, not super heavy wooden sticks or metal sticks.

Re: When does bastinado become dangerous? Is there real risk of injury?

#3
Hi Tony,

I think it's an important question you are asking that is not really often discussed. I only found information on this after I already been into falala/bastinado for many years.

I have found the following
detailed information on the safety of bastinado on another fetish forum on the internet by a very experienced user called "Kujman". I will quote his statements afterwards:
I've practiced bastinado in torture settings and spoken about it since the 70's... and I've always said the same thing: it only takes one bad session with bastinado to cripple a person. And sadly, Fetlife and the WWW is chock full of so-called masters and tops who've hurt people because they simply don't know what they're saying and doing... until it's too late.

Most of what people... tops... 'know' about bastinado they've learned from online and videos, which is the worst place to learn anything. I've watched so many videos now even from reputable sites wherein the top doesn't know what he's doing and has little-to-no ability or creativity ... even with tickling and foot torture. Years ago we gave a dozen demos a year that included bastinado, foot torture, totally immobile bondage devices, headspace, atmosphere-- the works. But today they don't do such, so there's no safe place to see it done and learn it.

I have a bazillion foot torture and bastinado devices!

Here's an arguable list of dooz n donts:

-Don't use canes or thin whips! I know every dude into bastinado swears by them but they're wrong and don't know what they're saying or the damage they're causing LONGTERM- and that's the key!! - They just do what they've seen in videos and on TV-- it causes damage. Especially since the surface hitting area is so thin--that causes nerve damage.

-Use a wide, lightweight, wooden cooking spoon... it spreads out the impact area, just as much agony if not more-- and NO damage. Plus the sound it makes is awesome. To get the same sound from a whip hitting a sole you'd have to hit so hard you'd draw blood.

-Don't beat the toes. You will break them.

After a while of beating, a little goes a loooooong way. Think about it.

-Your head may be in the clouds, but keep your feet firmly on the ground at all times... and watch, listen, adjust to your victim. Let them take the deeper head trip-- you stay put and run the session and keep it safe.

-Never base a judgment call on what the victim shouts out. They're in headspace, masochists, they're on an adrenaline high and have no judgment skills at that point, good or bad. As a tormentor, use YOUR judgment and common sense... and cut it shorter or lighten up the strokes if YOU believe it warrants it.
And later Kujman added the furthermore:
Foot torture, in general, dates back to the very beginnings of man's inhumanity to man. The feet.. toes.. the bottoms of bared feet... have always been a place of humility, embarrassment, a weak spot right down to your Archille's heel. Extreme tickling, roasting, Visubee, itching powder, beating, paddling, star kicking, crushing, stretching, baring for branding, goat licking-- the list is endless.

Bastinado is one of the oldest foot tortures known to humans. Originally designed to severely torture and to disable and cripple a victim. Oft times fatal.

Yet, it's found an erotic home in today's detailed scene play for those that go that extra step and alter it from the pure torture form and into a horrible, wonderful, erotic panic-driven encounter of torture applied to the helpless bottoms of your bare feet. Masters of this torture can extract the mental fragility and psyche from it, still delivering the agony.. but sans the damage-- thus in a way making it an even MORE frighteningly erotic torture when you cannot protect those poor, poor feet... as your sadistic tormentor, commanded to meter out your punishment, gazes intently at your unprotected, upturned soles so vulnerable and so innocently beckoning the agony...

There! Now I've set the headspace. We'll cover headspace another time. But remember that bastinado should be a LOT about headspace too. The words you carefully choose to say, and how you plan to deliver this exquisite torture. This is where the mental part can intercede and help deliver the physical part.

Torturing the bottoms of the bare feet with Bastinado is not as easy as many make it out to be. You have take many things into consideration: are they ticklish? Are you using it to make them MORE ticklish (this works great!) in conjunction with other tortures? Is it to be a pure pain experience? Part of a series of tortures? Do you wish the feet to remain soft and smooth and sensitive (ticklish) ? Or does that not matter?

Also, very important: does your victim have any foot problems? Circulatory woes? Diabetes? Are they on blood thinners?

If ANY of the latter---- do not use Bastinado. You will most likely have problems with blot clots, bruising, possible blood poisoning and/or tendinitis at the least.

The bare feet are made up of many bones and countless tendons. Take a look at this simple page to learn more: http://www.northcoastfootcare.com/pages ... atomy.html

This means that bad toe bondage and striking the feet can with a hard cane can, and has, broken bones & toes, blood vessels, and torn tendons and ligaments. Oh it looks great on film! But that's Hollywood. Not reality.

"GuBo: @Kujman, OK. So what are the issues with canes and whips and how/why are other implements better? Is wrap the issue or narrow impact area?"

The answer is both wrap and narrow impact area.

-A cane has little-to-no give. Meaning there's no absorbing or flex to it. It is solid. The tissue takes all the brunt.
-A cane is very thin- causing blood vessel and tendon damage due to it's very narrow impact area.
-A cane is long and not designed to form fit the foot. Instead it bridges the highest parts of the foot.
-A whip, while flexible, is also very thin and uses a narrow impact area ( re: the above)

Look at the bottom of the foot from the side. Unless a person is severely flatfooted, the sole you're trying to strike is in a valley-- it is concave-- and the side of the foot is sitting much higher. A long thin, or even fat, cane is going to hit the raised sides of the bare feet-- not the sole... unless of course you use extra blunt force to make them 'give', in which case the lateral peroneal brevis tendon section is going to take 90% of the impact-- with possibly the 1st metatarsal also absorbing the impact before the sole itself.

Now to some the natural answer to that is to simply 'hit harder'. WRONG. I don't have to explain that further.

In English: you have a soft foot, the sides are higher than the impact area (the sole), and you are using a long cane that BRIDGES the two when it hits. I don't care how great a marksman you are, you are going to be hitting the highest mark.

Now, if you try to hit it lengthwise-- that is from toe to heel-- in that case the heels (calcaneus area) and the balls of the feet (metatarsal's area) are higher and will most likely take the impact before the sole. Again, a cane bridging the gap. That is if you don't hit the toes with the extended cane, which could break them.

"Ted_Subby: I am interested in reading more about the issue of narrow impact because there is plenty of narrow impact in BDSM on other areas of the body.."

Let me address this immediately. Yes, there IS plenty of other impact area with canes and whips on other parts of the body, and has been for years in BDSM. A prime example of that is a bottom being caned.

BUT-- the bottoms of feet are not the buttocks. Feet have 28 bones. Hineys have many layers of muscle and even more fat to protect them! Look at the bottoms of the bare feet-- they have NONE! You are practically hitting pure tendons and nerves. There is nothing to absorb the full impact. And when using a hard cane without flex and hitting such a narrow impact area you are damaging those tendons-- and the sides of the feet and the other places I pointed out-- with each strike.

"Ted_Subby: if there is a specific safety issue about narrow impact on feet that is news to me and I would like to read more about that"

Okay, then keep on reading.

The common school of thought is this: the narrower the impact, the more intense the pain.

Well... yes... and no.

Yes-- It's more intense AND more damaging at the same time. You want a good test? Have another person (not yourself) strike the palm of your hand with the same cane and the same force. You'll see for yourself. And hands are tougher and meatier than soles!

Now.. If you're a person who is also into tickling the bare feet of the same victim you are bastinadoing, and you're intending this relationship to go on a very long time? And you're hitting that narrow impact area repeatedly and think they'll always be ticklish?? Think again. You're deadening the nerves in the feet. A person's ticklishness depends entirely upon how close their nerve endings are to the undersides of their bare feet-- and if those nerves are damaged... well..?? They don't grow back.

Plus with such a narrow impact area you are risking BONE injuries. A person who is merely very overweight can break bones in their feet by simply walking or stepping on a ladder rung barefoot or stepping on a rock... so how do you think those foot bones will fare with striking them with a narrow cane? I've known a lot of tops who wouldn't listen to me.. and know a LOT more victims who had to have surgery due to it. The TOPS didn't have to have the surgery, mind you! The Bottoms did!

Is it worth the risk when there are better methods?

Canes and whips are seldom accurate, especially with wiggling feet. The impact area is too narrow, and they don't have the necessary flex to absorb.

"GuBo: @Kujman- how do the mechanics or mechanics of use of different implements avoid the issues in question?"

Wider implements with shorter handles work, as do soft, wide leather belts.

Here is the solution I've always used. I use a wide wooden cooking spoon. It can be lightweight, or have several varying in weight. It's rounded perfectly and one side fits the concave of the soles so that the pain is delivered out over a wider impact area AND IN THE SOLES, without worry of 'bridging the highest spots'. It's short and very manageable, meaning you can hit the target easier and vary the amount of impact as well.

Earlier I answered the question of "the narrower the impact, the more intense the pain. " with a yes and no. I gave you the yes-- here's the no part:

A wooden spoon comes in varying weights and can deliver a Bastinado and create agony in the poor soles far WORSE than a cane! I have proved this at demos several times alongside "Tops" trying to show off and shoot me down... and I took their victims down one by one, all saying that my techniques were far worse than any caning they had ever received.

Wooden spoons allow for have techniques that canes can't manage... such as oiling the soles with vegetable oil and roasting them severely but slowly with a heat lamp for long periods, then using a medium weight wooden spoon and hitting them repeatedly in a staccato-machinegun like fashion in a series of lighter swats and the pain grows and grows until unbearable ..

Then heat...and repeat. On and on.

For ticklers, try a feather or finger tickling (forget stupid hairbrushes) after a Bastinado: after the beating, wait about 4 or five minutes, allowing the blood to return to the nerve endings fully.. and then begin your ticklish assault. You better have them in real bondage because this technique will increase their ticklish levels 100 times and they will hate you.

Then return to the Bastinado and Roasting again. Then again the staccato-machinegun swats (TECH TIP: You should lessen the weight of the swats as you go because the pain will grow expedientially).

Want to talk headspace? Simply mention this: because there is no fear of damage now, it can go on all night long..... indefinitely.

And THAT ALONE should put a chill in your victim!
Most of this was new to me and my preferred device has always been the cane. But it seems to be a very dangerous device especially when it comes to longterm nerve damage and even the risk of heart attacks coming from blood clots caused by heavy force of a cane to the feet. So I thinkt the falaka/bastinado szene should much more talk about the risks that seem to be involved.

Re: When does bastinado become dangerous? Is there real risk of injury?

#4
tryer wrote:
2020/06/28 - 18:06
Hi Tony,

I think it's an important question you are asking that is not really often discussed. I only found information on this after I already been into falala/bastinado for many years.

I have found the following
detailed information on the safety of bastinado on another fetish forum on the internet by a very experienced user called "Kujman". I will quote his statements afterwards:
(Zip)
Most of this was new to me and my preferred device has always been the cane. But it seems to be a very dangerous device especially when it comes to longterm nerve damage and even the risk of heart attacks coming from blood clots caused by heavy force of a cane to the feet. So I thinkt the falaka/bastinado szene should much more talk about the risks that seem to be involved.
At last someone replies!
And a quite interesting and complete reply!

I liked the whole read, not only the safety and tools one but also when he talks about the headspace. I agree so much and i like to see it's an official thing! It's one of the most exciting things to me. When someone who likes recieving bastinado says "no, stop", it is most likely that it is coming out of the pleasure, paradoxically, that is giving, and, deep down, he/she wants more and more... i know that feeling... and that's why i like that the whole thing is under the punisher's control, and not the bottom's one, that never made sense to me. So... great to read that from an expert!

When it comes to tools... yeah, after this read i think i will never again use a cane (or have a cane used on me) xD Will give a try to the wooden spoon too as he mentions!

Ah... at last some good discussion about bastinado on this Forum!

Re: When does bastinado become dangerous? Is there real risk of injury?

#5
Tony wrote:
2020/03/17 - 21:40
I have also seen some videos, most of them by Parox, that seem to be really, really hard, and there has been no injury (at least that i am aware) and the girl has walked afterwards.
Let me briefly describe my work. My videos are just a small glimpse of my extensive work in BDSM. Whether my own slave or a model, both are introduced to my world of BDSM. Before we even put the camera on, we talk for hours. Everything is discussed, especially the state of mind of the person. I only use devices that hurt a lot, but prevent internal injuries, especially of the bones. I create a very trusting atmosphere. The women are then ready to receive more pain than they ever thought possible. After the video recording, I deal with the pain, take care of the women and talk to them about them for a long time. A solid BDSM basis in the interpersonal relationship increases the willingness to show more devotion, with passion to indulge in pain, to do more voluntarily than is required.
Image

Parox Dark - Gabriel Azrael

Re: When does bastinado become dangerous? Is there real risk of injury?

#6
Parox wrote:
2020/07/03 - 11:18
Tony wrote:
2020/03/17 - 21:40
I have also seen some videos, most of them by Parox, that seem to be really, really hard, and there has been no injury (at least that i am aware) and the girl has walked afterwards.
Let me briefly describe my work. My videos are just a small glimpse of my extensive work in BDSM. Whether my own slave or a model, both are introduced to my world of BDSM. Before we even put the camera on, we talk for hours. Everything is discussed, especially the state of mind of the person. I only use devices that hurt a lot, but prevent internal injuries, especially of the bones. I create a very trusting atmosphere. The women are then ready to receive more pain than they ever thought possible. After the video recording, I deal with the pain, take care of the women and talk to them about them for a long time. A solid BDSM basis in the interpersonal relationship increases the willingness to show more devotion, with passion to indulge in pain, to do more voluntarily than is required.
Yes, I love that idea! More pain than one could have imagined, that’s the fun in this!

It’s amazing to think those sessions doesn’t actually hurt their feet (when it comes to bones etc)... I love those videos, so many hits, with such a force, so much suffering, a real suffering...

So, the rubber and leather multi-tail whips, I know those aren’t dangerous at all despite the pain, but... the heavy, thick leather belts and the rattan canes, they have never caused any damage either? My doubt comes specially about the rattan canes, have they never caused any kind of damage in those extreme sessions? In that case... I would love to try those next!

Re: When does bastinado become dangerous? Is there real risk of injury?

#7
There is always a risk of injury in a BDSM session. This is somewhat higher in the RACK regulation. The hard videos imply sessions in RACK. You just have to know where the limits are and act correctly in the event of injuries. Injuries do occur, but years of experience minimize their rate. I use e.g. with canes only cane. Bamboo and similar sticks can cause severe injuries. That being said, all the tools I use hurt. You just have to know exactly what you are doing when you are doing extreme sessions. Communication and trust are important, compliance with limits, health comes first!
Image

Parox Dark - Gabriel Azrael

Re: When does bastinado become dangerous? Is there real risk of injury?

#8
Parox wrote:
2020/07/05 - 09:26
There is always a risk of injury in a BDSM session. This is somewhat higher in the RACK regulation. The hard videos imply sessions in RACK. You just have to know where the limits are and act correctly in the event of injuries. Injuries do occur, but years of experience minimize their rate. I use e.g. with canes only cane. Bamboo and similar sticks can cause severe injuries. That being said, all the tools I use hurt. You just have to know exactly what you are doing when you are doing extreme sessions. Communication and trust are important, compliance with limits, health comes first!
Interesting... thank you for the detailed replies! Nice to have some good discussion on the forum at last ^^

Of course, when it comes to injuries, i am not talking about a little cut in the skin or bruise, i am talking about broken bones and stuff like that, if it makes a difference about what we are talking about haha

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